Home > Freemasonry, Gaysons, Grand Lodge, masonry > Shots fired! GL CA suspends recognition with GA and TN

Shots fired! GL CA suspends recognition with GA and TN

From a Facebook post this morning:

By letter of March 7, 2016, the Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of California has suspended recognition of the Grand Lodges Georgia and Tennessee until the next regular communication of the Grand Lodge of California.

Verification and more developments to follow.

Edit 1: The text of the email, which went out to lodge officers yesterday:

M. DAVID PERRY
GRAND MASTER
GRAND LODGE
FREE AND ACCEPTED MASONS
OF CALIFORNIA
CALIFORNIA MASONIC MEMORIAL TEMPLE
1111 CALIFORNIA STREET
SAN FRANCISCO, CA 94108

WWW.FREEMASON.ORG

Via electronic mail

March 7, 2016

To all Grand Lodges in amity with the Grand Lodge of California:

You might have read of recent events in Georgia and Tennessee where the Grand Lodges
there have adopted new rules or enforced existing rules to discipline Masons because of their
sexual orientation.

The Grand Lodge of Georgia ratified Grand Master McDonald’s Edict No. 2015-4 at the last
Annual Communication of their Grand Lodge, thereby adding the following language to their
Grand Lodge law: homosexual activity with anyone subjects the offender to discipline.
The Grand Lodge of Tennessee recently suspended two brothers from Masonry for violating
a provision of the Tennessee Masonic Code when they posted photographs of their wedding to
each other on Facebook. The Tennessee Masonic Code states that it is a Masonic offense to
promote or engage in homosexual activity.

In each case, I construe these actions as a sectarian stand which is inconsistent with and does
not support the General Regulations of Freemasonry. I have therefore suspended
recognition of The Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons of the State of Georgia and the
Grand Lodge of Tennessee F. & A. M. until the next Annual Communication of our Grand
Lodge.

I am happy to share with you further details about my decision, if you so desire.

Sincerely and fraternally,
M. DAVID PERRY
Grand Master

 

Edit 2: Chris Hodapp has confirmation that the Grand Lodge of DC has likewise suspended recognition. I think that MW Bro. Fuller’s words sum things up nicely:

“On a personal note, as an ordained Christian minister who holds deep religious convictions, I find the actions of these Grand Lodges all the more troublesome. Many faiths, including my own denomination of Christianity, are divided on several social and moral issues, yet it is our duty as Masons to ensure these disagreements do not spill over into our fraternity and sow disharmony.

“In closing, let me reiterate the words of my predecessor and approved by our entire Grand Lodge: we are open to all men of faith based upon their personal merit and good character, without reference to race, creed, sexual orientation, specific religion or national origin.

“I hope, pray, and trust that the hand of providence and the light of wisdom will guide our fraternity to a swift resolution to this unfortunate matter.”

 

 

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  1. March 8, 2016 at 11:49 am

    Since it’s not really a democracy, our/their choices are limited… What we should all really</> be worried about is a Craft that has let the problem happen in the first place.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. David Glaholm
    March 8, 2016 at 12:33 pm

    Well done. There is no place for discrimination in our fraternity.

    Like

    • Scott Gamble
      March 8, 2016 at 7:50 pm

      But this is discrimination. It is a choice to break relations and to suggest that some forms of religious practice are in fact not compatible with the fraternity. To make such a decree asserting a sectarian motive likely breaks with other landmarks against discussing matters of politics and religion (or at least the spirit of them). I support the presence of every good man in lodge. I also find both sides of this situation to be guilty of avoiding real discussion and pursuit of real solutions. It is time for revision of the landmarks and a revolution in the practices of the lodge and grand lodge worthy of the true spirit of Freemasonry.

      Like

      • Benjamin
        March 9, 2016 at 12:22 pm

        I totally see your point. It’s just like how Abraham Lincoln saying he would end slavery was discriminatory because he didn’t consider the opinions of racist white slave owners. Any religious practice that requires you to bring your opinions to lodge IS incompatible with the fraternity. Let me break it down to you simply:

        There is to be no discussion of politics or religion in the lodge room. Politics or religion are the only basis to object to a good man becoming a Mason due to sexual orientation. Therefore, in the consideration of a man being fit to join masonry, it doesn’t matter if he is gay, straight, or any shade between.

        Your argument essentially says that one person’s religious beliefs supersede other’s and lodge should be a “safe place” for the expression of religious beliefs, regardless of how ignorant and discriminatory they may be. Further consideration of your argument leads to the conclusion that you believe it is a race to the bottom and whoever is the most ignorant and prejudiced wins. What you argue for is fascism and our fraternity has a strong history of being anti-fascist.

        Maybe you should check your privilege and consider that others have to experience oppressive, intolerant opinions every day of their life. Lodge should be the one place free of such vitriol.

        Like

    • Mark Clemons
      March 9, 2016 at 1:52 pm

      This is great! Bring on equality! We are all on the level and should be treated as such. Now we need to push for 3 more things:
      We need to sever our ties with masons that do not support equality, such as: George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and James Madison. These men obviously did not see men as their equal since they owned slaves and prevented freed ones from joining masonry.
      All Grand Lodges of every state needs to stop recognizing masons from Washington, D.C., and Washington state, since they bear the name of a slave owner.
      Women are just as worthy and well qualified to be masons, too.
      HOW CAN WE SAY “without reference to race, creed, sexual orientation, specific religion or national origin.” WITHOUT INCLUDING GENDER???
      I have many friends that are women and identify as men, but cannot become masons.
      WE NEED TO STAND UP FOR THOSE WHO ARE NOT BEING VIEWED AS EQUALS!!!

      Like

      • March 9, 2016 at 11:21 pm

        Well said sir! I like the cut of your jib

        Like

      • March 13, 2016 at 11:26 pm

        Hell no on female freemason thats what Eastern Star is for, if a woman petitioned in my lodge would automatically black cube her, not happening.

        Liked by 1 person

    • CD
      March 19, 2016 at 1:22 am

      Yep! Better be indiscriminate.

      Like

  3. March 8, 2016 at 12:37 pm

    I don’t see this on the GLCA website. Is it posted? I see an earlier one about the Universality of Freemasonry, but not this one.

    Like

    • March 8, 2016 at 12:40 pm

      Right now it’s just an email that has been sent to the officers. I’ve had confirmations from CA brothers that the email is legit.

      I imagine that the actual text will be posted soon.

      Like

  4. Tim
    March 8, 2016 at 12:56 pm

    GOOD! Thankfully in Georgia and Tennessee you can attend a Lodge meeting with real men instead of sister men! Georgia hopefully will NEVER condone such perversion!

    Liked by 1 person

    • Greg Mitchell
      March 8, 2016 at 1:24 pm

      Agreed

      Like

    • Alan
      March 8, 2016 at 1:42 pm

      With that kind of a closed mind, you can not be a true Brother.

      Like

      • March 8, 2016 at 2:29 pm

        Best answer yet!

        Like

      • March 9, 2016 at 4:10 am

        When one takes his obligation! it is done so holding a law book. Even if it is not the bible ,but the koran. Both condemn men lying with other men. A mason takes an oath not to have sex with a mason’s wife, mother, daughter, so it is now morally permissable to have sex with a masons son, husband, father or brother? The west coast masons may wish to excommunicate (suspend) Virginia masonry like wise, since now transgender applicants are disqualified.

        Liked by 1 person

      • March 9, 2016 at 9:50 am

        Gary you’re mixing up very different ideas.
        1) Not all interpretations of the scriptures you’re using are taken to mean consenting gay relationships (and there are other religions beyond Christianity and Islam that are very ok with gay relationships…and plenty of Christian denominations as well).

        2) Several jurisdictions reword that section of the obligation to be anyone that a MM holds near and dear. – This is a strawman argument as it has nothing to do with expelling perfectly good Masons for getting married.

        3) I don’t believe anyone has brought up transgender applicants nor asked how that would impact the fraternity. However, if a man were to ask to join are you going to check his medical records to determine if a transition has taken place?

        Like

    • March 8, 2016 at 2:29 pm

      Wasn’t aware of any sisters being involved. Just men.

      Liked by 1 person

      • CD
        March 19, 2016 at 1:31 am

        The Bible, in words of G-d, prophets and apostles, is very clear and consistent in condemning homosexuality. If you take the oath on the Bible, you know that.

        Like

    • March 8, 2016 at 2:50 pm

      This is a sad opinion, and those reading from outside the Fraternity should not be swayed into thinking this narrow-mindedness in any way represents what the Fraternity as a whole is founded on, stands for, or is meant to lead us unto the future by example.

      This could degrade into a slap fight, which accomplishes nothing save giving the minority the respect of acknowledgement. Through the ages, the divisive issues concerning the public have been this and many others, and there will be more new ones down the road. That isn’t the important part here-even though this wayward brother would like to have you believe.

      The real issue at the core of this is respect. This brother has lost his respect for what lies within and without the circumscribed circle, and by doing so, has lost the respect of his fellow Brothers. Masons are not required to like each other, but whisper good counsel (when the brother’s ears are open).

      The true core of masonry is that we have since the very start been a haven for innovative thinking, often being ahead of our time. This naturally leads to grief with the establishment (looking at you, catholic church), which was the major reason for adopting the rituals of recognition-not secrecy-of the roaming masonic guilds.

      Masons of old died to protect free thinking, equality, and most of all respect. Your rank or money was not influential in educated discussions. You could even put forward radical views, opinions, or observations without the fear of being put to death-a liberty our near-sighted brother here takes for granted.

      So the take-away for masons alike and others is that masonry above all is concerned with respect for differences, and equality sprung from the well of Respect.

      A brother who remains in the craft with such a narrow mind of the world is casting the Craft backward, not forward, and disgraces the Fraternity in the eyes of the public. Excusing yourself from a Fraternity you disagree with would benefit all involved.

      Liked by 2 people

    • Michael Mitchell
      March 8, 2016 at 5:05 pm

      There is a brother in my lodge who is of the LGBT community. He is a hell of a good man and a damn good Mason. For anyone who says he cannot be a Mason because of his orientation, you are a bigot and definitely missed what being a Mason is all about.

      Liked by 1 person

      • March 9, 2016 at 4:27 am

        If a man notices that a brothers wife is exceptionally enticing and causes stiring in his loins. As long as he subdues this passion, so be it. If he cannot control his actions hi obligations are violated. Any man might notice or appreciate the beauty of how well endowed an under age woman may be. But as long as he takes, sends, receives, no pictures, there’s no crime (felony). If a man has a sexual thought or desire and acts not. Then no crime has been committed.

        Like

    • Mike Nelosn
      March 8, 2016 at 6:12 pm

      I am proud to be a Mason from Tennessee and stand by the Grand Lodge of Tennessee’s decision. I will be at Grand Lodge in two weeks to help ratify that decision.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Chris Parker
        March 8, 2016 at 10:44 pm

        I as a Brother in Washington feel very sad for you. Please think about your actions very carefully as your decisions now will have a profound impact for the future.

        Like

      • jimmcguigan
        March 9, 2016 at 12:54 am

        This is a violation of your obligation. We don’t wrong a brother. It’s just not permitted. If the GL of TN chooses to violate their obligation, they should not be recognized by any Masons.

        Like

  5. Philip White
    March 8, 2016 at 1:35 pm

    Good, there is no room in our Fraternity for Racism or Homophobia. We are a group of Gentlemen, who are supposed to judge men for their actions and the contents of their Hearts, not for who they Love. I have a feeling that California is not going to be the last GL to take this action. I am proud to be a Mason in NC, where we try to live up to our Masonic Values.

    Liked by 1 person

  6. Ed
    March 8, 2016 at 1:39 pm

    I think it should be voted upon, by all members.
    Freemasonry is for the members….it is ran by the members….this issue should be decided by the members.
    Each Lodge should send out questionnaires and then the members mail them to their own Grand Lodge for a tally.

    Like

  7. Edwin Luth
    March 8, 2016 at 1:47 pm

    Will this truly be brought up at the next annual communication of the GLCA or will it be kicked down the road. ?

    Like

  8. Joseph K. Austin
    March 8, 2016 at 1:47 pm

    I hope that you brothers remember your MM
    obligation BUFF SAID SMIB!

    Like

  9. Chewi
    March 8, 2016 at 1:56 pm

    I stand with GL of California.

    Liked by 1 person

    • william patton
      March 8, 2016 at 4:21 pm

      Greetings from NC, Mount Vernon Lodge 359: Brother my question is does the GL of Ca. allow women to join, please excuse my ignorance.

      Like

  10. Edwin Luth
    March 8, 2016 at 2:20 pm

    Mention of the Morgan Affair in the United States . I think this should be brought up and voted by the members of each Lodge. Remembering the trials and tribulations of Masonic Lodges during the Civil War in the United States. Re-visiting Masonic Lodges in the State of Colorado during that period.

    Like

  11. March 8, 2016 at 2:39 pm

    I wish I could remember the exact wording of the obligations… Just been a while. But they only mean something if you follow the Lodge, if your Word means anything. AND there have been Brothers quit over less and move onto work within other organizations. Some have stopped going to Lodge. My concern here, was there any discussions anywhere before this action was taken? Has there been any meetings of the minds keeping it members first? Men, don’t know about your areas, but our membership has been sinking for years. Mergers everywhere. I am a PHP but my Chapter has merged twice… How can we NOT all speak with 1 voice?

    Like

  12. Eric
    March 8, 2016 at 3:17 pm

    I’m not judgemental ( I can’t bee).. Its that eye don’t deal comfortable, well I don’t judge them, I really don’t know what to think, ITs the time we are in, I guess??

    Like

    • March 8, 2016 at 3:43 pm

      Eric – I’m not certain what you feel uncomfortable about. Statistically you’ve already sat in Lodge with a gay man and had no idea.

      Like

      • CD
        March 19, 2016 at 1:40 am

        Yep! But these got marred. Or was that married?

        Like

  13. Matt
    March 8, 2016 at 3:33 pm

    Let’s put it this way, do we now have to modify the obligation to include brothers, fathers, or sons when we talk about wives, mothers, sisters, nor daughters?

    Like

    • Stephen Hall
      March 8, 2016 at 4:02 pm

      In NSW, Australia we simplify it to I will strictly respect the chastity of those nearest and dearest to him

      Like

  14. Don Smith
    March 8, 2016 at 3:37 pm

    The Grand Lodge of California has not voted on this and will not vote on this until the Annual Communications of the Grand Lodge of California. This is an edict by the Grand Master and is his opinion. This Edict stands until the Annual Communications, where it will then be brought up to the whole Grand Lodge. They will then have the power to reject or accept this Edict. We as masons should let the process of our Constitutions play out and not interfere with the workings inside another Grand Lodge. I will hold my judgement, until I see the result of the members of the Grand Lodge of California.

    Like

  15. Andy McPherson
    March 8, 2016 at 3:39 pm

    Maybe 2% of the population is gay. Let’s suppose that half of that 2% are women. How many of the 1% of gay men want to become a Mason? Of that number, how many gay men who apply to a lodge will be accepted? This is not a problem. This is the gay lobby trying to keep things stirred up so they can bully their way into the mainstream of society. Ignore the gays and they will go away.

    Like

    • March 8, 2016 at 3:45 pm

      As a gay PM and officer of the AASR Valley of Indianapolis, it’s not stirring up anything. We are members and have been members. We’re asking for the persecution to stop.

      Like

      • CD
        March 19, 2016 at 1:43 am

        That was TOO MUCH INFORMATION. Not asked – don’t tell. Now we all know where you stick it.

        Like

    • Rob Ray
      March 8, 2016 at 4:05 pm

      This is an extremely small minded view of the issue. The numbers of openly gay men in the world are one, more than you state. Two, this is an issue of principle upon which masonry is being viewed as a whole, and not just two backwards states in the south (spoken as a Master from the state of CA who grew up in South Carolina). Three, I would argue that it DOES apply to our craft. How many gay men apply to a lodge and are accepted. A ton of them. Our chaplain is an openly gay man, and we have grand lodge officers who are openly gay. We see no distinction. It also caused protesters to picket the Masonic Service Bureau breakfast in southern California. Because Masonry is not looked at as a state assembly or that of a nation, but a world wide fraternity. These rules suspended active masons from their privileges, in the lodges they helped build. And not by “unmasonic conduct” but for posting pictures of their wedding. Shameful. A true black eye on the fraternity and I am proud of CA for taking a swing back.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Justaguy
      March 8, 2016 at 7:44 pm

      “This is not a problem. This is the gay lobby trying to keep things stirred up so they can bully their way into the mainstream of society.”

      Well, no. This problem was created by the Grand Lodges of Georgia and Tennessee when they decided to enforce their personal religious codes upon all Masons in their respective jurisdictions. I suspect it is greater than 2%, but that is immaterial. If only one Brother is discriminated against in the name of Freemasonry it is too many.

      Liked by 1 person

      • CD
        March 19, 2016 at 1:46 am

        They enforce the codes of their Lodges. Nothing personal.

        Like

      • March 19, 2016 at 5:31 am

        No, CD – I’m case you haven’t been following the story, they were not enforcing the codes, except in a very selective way against Clark and Henderson. There is no indication that other guys gave been expelled for living with girlfriends, public drunkenness, using porn, or anything else.

        Like

    • fuzzbrain2
      March 9, 2016 at 12:01 am

      I will ask a question then because I’ve asked it of the so-called Christians in my area who soap box this issue…

      The anti-homosexuality “moral” comes from a certain Volume of Sacred Law in most USA GL jurisdictions who follow that particular morality issue. That same VoSL also says that divorce and promiscuity (sex outside of marriage) are sins, and names many other various sins. This book also states that no one sin is greater than another and that all sin is hated by God.

      So my question to those who condone anti-homosexuality moral clauses, does you GL also ban or suspend/expel members who have divorced or who actively participate in unmarried sex? I can answer that for you. The answer is NO! Why not? Well, for one it would probably get rid of about half of the masons over 50 and probably 90 – 100 % of masons under 50. Freemasonry would then just about disappear.

      So my opinion is that if you are going to take a religious moral standing in Masonry then you cannot pick and choose which morals you follow. That would be hypocritical. You must uphold them all equally or none at all otherwise morality has nothing to do with it and it becomes based on prejudice and fear, instead.

      If you base your “moral conduct” on the law of the land then you must be willing to adjust your code when the law changes.

      Like

    • Tim
      March 9, 2016 at 11:52 pm

      Exactly right my brother, they are simply looking for another target to sue, or perhaps a target rich environment to recruit in!

      Like

      • March 10, 2016 at 3:20 am

        Tim, the gay masons that I know are not recruiting from lodges any more than you or your lodge brothers recruit women at your church.

        The idea is too ridiculous to even be discussing.

        Like

  16. Hiram
    March 8, 2016 at 3:40 pm

    I have no problem with their lifestyle. However 2 Masonic brothers marrying each other violates the oath of any Fraternity.

    Liked by 1 person

    • March 8, 2016 at 3:46 pm

      I’m not aware of any violation of any of Anderson’s constitutions, obligations in the EA, FC, MM, or any of the appendant bodies. Please point to the reference that would make this a violation.

      Liked by 1 person

  17. Charles
    March 8, 2016 at 3:55 pm

    I understand that as a MM I took an obligation to my brother masons. I also understand that this kind of behavior is an accepted practice and lifestyle in California but that is not the case everywhere in our great country. We each stood before a podieam with a Bible, compass and square and took the same oath to live our lives on the square and we are suppose to use the Bible, compass and square as examples of living an up right and good life. We also were asked if we had a belief in God the Supreme Architect of the Universe. The Bible views homosexuality as a deviant behavior and is more that explicit in this….going as far as to call it an abomination in the eyes of our Heavenly Father. Homosexuality was extremely pervasive in the biblical cities of Sodom and Gamora and it is the only place in the Bible that God destroyed these cities so completely that there location can not be pin pointed even today but there are historical writing gs out side of the Bible that confirms they did exist.
    I have problems with a segment of our population that only makes up around 4 to 5 percent is able to dictate to the rest of us what we have to accept. You may call it discrimination but I call it a deviant lifestyle and choose not to associate with this community and teach my children that it is wrong In the eyes of our creator. I would hate to have to choose between attending lodge that was accepting of this behaviour or not attending at all. Our fatirnity is not an accept all as they come, there are limits and checks and balances to be accepted . I agree that is it comes down to it there should be conversations and a vote amongst the brotherhood as to whether this is accepted behavior but there again if it is accepted then the Bible needs to be removed from the center of our lodge and I will choose not to attend a lodge that openly accepts this deviant behaviour.

    Like

    • March 8, 2016 at 4:05 pm

      That’s your religious interpretation of those scriptures. There are other churches that teach differently here in the midwest. As Masonry doesn’t apply any one creed to its laws your particular religious views are at odds with the stated practice of Masonry to take any religion and treat them as equals. Therefore the deviant behaviour is that of the GLs of TN and GA to apply religious beliefs over those of Masonic equality.

      Like

      • March 8, 2016 at 4:16 pm

        Also it’s a volume of sacred law. It does not have to be a Bible of the Christian faith.

        Like

      • Charles
        March 8, 2016 at 7:45 pm

        Luke it’s not my interpretation of any scripture….here are but a few translations from many versions of the Bible. You interpret what it says….. Leviticus 18:22
        KJ21
        Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination.
        ASV
        Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
        AMP
        You shall not lie [intimately] with a male as one lies with a female; it is repulsive.
        AMPC
        You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination.
        BRG
        Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
        CEB
        You must not have sexual intercourse with a man as you would with a woman; it is a detestable practice.
        CJB
        (RY: iv, LY: vii) “‘You are not to go to bed with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination.
        CEV
        It is disgusting for a man to have sex with another man.
        DARBY
        And thou shalt not lie with mankind as one lieth with a woman: it is an abomination.
        DRA
        Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind, because it is an abomination.
        ERV
        “Men, you must not have sexual relations with another man as with a woman. That is a terrible sin!
        ESV
        You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.
        ESVUK
        You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.
        EXB
        “‘You must not ·have sexual relations [L lie] with a man as you would a woman. That is ·a hateful sin [an abomination].
        GNV
        Thou shalt not lie with the male as one lieth with a woman: for it is abomination.
        GW
        Never have sexual intercourse with a man as with a woman. It is disgusting.
        GNT
        No man is to have sexual relations with another man; God hates that.
        Ultimately at the end of our road I guess most want to go to that celestial abode that Freemasonry talks about but the Bible don’t tell us that we get there by being good masons……Freemasonry teaches us to be good men but the Bible tells us it is only by the shed Blood of Jesus Christ and excepting that gift by recognizing while we were yet sinners that he died for our transgressions.

        Like

      • March 9, 2016 at 2:29 pm

        First I will be up front that I am not a Mason and very much an Atheist.

        Charles, so you live fully by Leviticus? I will guarantee that you do not. Herein lies the problems that I have with most religious people. They tend to pick and choose the parts of their holy book to follow. In my personal view the Westboro Baptist Church is the most honest when it comes to their religion and beliefs.

        I applaud the GL of California and any others for their stance against TN and GA.

        Like

      • March 9, 2016 at 4:05 pm

        Charles – all of those are from a Christian Bible. Which is not applicable to all Masons. Your religious belief and dogma is your religious belief and dogma. Mine does not agree with yours. Masonry states that both are equal in the Fraternity.
        Therefore why would we allow Masonic law to reflect a contended matter of faith? Masonry does not bend itself to a particular creed.

        Like

      • March 12, 2016 at 11:31 pm

        Dirthawker…I didn’t pick and choose anything. The Grand Master of the GL of Calif is the one that choose to throw the gauntlet down and suspend recognition of Tenn and Ga. As far as the Bible goes I accept it by face value and yes I choose to live by it. We are all flawed people and we all sin on a daily basis all of us either in thought, action or spoken word, as a Christian Jesus Christ paid the price for my sins by offering his life as a ransom not only for my sins but yours too. Salvation is a free gift you only need to accept it and ask for forgiveness for your sin. You made a point to say you are an Atheist so I can only say I pray that you choose to be open to the word of God because we will all stand before God on our judgement day and give an account of our lives and there are no do overs or I didn’t know…….

        Like

    • Stephen Hall
      March 8, 2016 at 4:15 pm

      I am so dissapointed to hear a brother speak like this.. this is the talk of witch burning and spanish inquisition. It is the talk of the dark ages. The belief in the GAOTU is not dictated by KJV, it is truly non sectarian. Our journey is towards the light, not back to the dark (ages). It might be time to reread the story of David and Johnathan..

      Like

    • Masonic Mason
      March 8, 2016 at 4:26 pm

      You are welcome to worship your higher power however you wish, but please do not push your holier-than-thou beliefs on others. The Bible is not the only holy book that brothers take their obligation on. Masonry is about spiritual growth, not Religion. I hope your spirit is able to grow and accept others for who they are if they choose to live a public life that benefits their fellow man. What they do in their private life is between them and the GAOTU.

      Like

    • March 8, 2016 at 4:44 pm

      It’s an alter. Not a ‘podieam’

      Like

    • Raymond
      March 8, 2016 at 5:24 pm

      Well said very well said

      Like

    • Justaguy
      March 8, 2016 at 7:59 pm

      While your interpretation of the story of Sodom and Gomorra is flawed, it is besides the point.

      I didn’t take my obligation on the Bible, nor did the Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist or Pagan brothers in my lodge. I didn’t become a Mason to enforce my religious views on others, or to have brothers force their religious beliefs on me. Should my Muslim brothers denounce me for drinking? Should my Jewish brothers denounce Masons who eat pork?

      Such sectarianism is fundamentally unmasonic.

      Like

      • March 9, 2016 at 7:20 am

        So if you have a Pagan brother in your lodge that would make him a liar because pagans don’t believe in God.

        Like

      • March 9, 2016 at 7:24 am

        Pagan is a fairly loose term describing a number of belief systems, but most of them do not believe in a monotheistic Christian God. That does not make them unbelievers.

        Like

      • Justaguy
        March 9, 2016 at 7:42 am

        They are not Christians, but they believe in a higher power. How they define that higher power is entirely their business. The same is true for my brothers who are Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, etc.

        Like

      • March 15, 2016 at 4:27 am

        Please explain the flaws in the story of Sodam….

        Like

      • Justaguy
        March 15, 2016 at 9:11 am

        “Please explain the flaws in the story of Sodam….”

        The story of Sodom and Gomorrah can’t be about consensual homosexual relationships, because there aren’t any in the story. If the Sodomites attempts to rape the strangers is a condemnation of all homosexual sex, then why isn’t the rape of Dinah a condemnation of all heterosexual sex?

        But in the context of Genesis, Sodom and Gomorrah isn’t about sex at all. It’s about hospitality towards strangers. The passage starts with three strangers – two angels and the Lord – come to Abraham. Abraham responds with hospitality, and is rewarded by being told that his wife, Sarah, will have a child even though she’s too old.

        The two angels then go on to Sodom and Gomorrah, where they are attacked and, were it not for the protection of Lot, would be raped. So Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed.

        There’s a clear parallelism between the two stories – treat strangers with hospitality and be rewarded, treat strangers with animosity and be punished.

        This is the lesson that Jesus takes from the story in Mathew 10:14-15, when he tells his followers that towns which don’t welcome them with hospitality will be judged like Sodom and Gomorrah.

        Liked by 1 person

      • April 23, 2016 at 4:31 pm

        So God destroyed Sodom cause they didn’t show hospitality? The strangers that came to visit Lot were there to tell him and his family to leave this sinful city because God was going to destroy it. They were also told not to even look back which Lots wife ignored and paid the price. It had nothing to do with hospitality the men of Sodom were threatening to come in and get them because they wanted to rape them and Lot offered his daughters because he knew these men were sent from God but they wanted the men because of their deivent behavior because they were homosexuals.

        Like

      • April 23, 2016 at 8:24 pm

        @Greenrider, I meant to address my comment to the Corinthians troll, the non-mason trying quite poorly to show Masons the light… WordPress made it look like I was replying to you. Sorry.

        Like

      • April 23, 2016 at 8:27 pm

        Ah all goof feel free to add me on Facebook btw. Don’t care if anyone knows my name Patrick Carley in my pic I am wearing a fez :p I am from lodge 213 Mystic Tie saskatoon

        Liked by 1 person

      • April 24, 2016 at 6:12 am

        My WordPress theme only allows 3 or 4 levels of reply threading, so sometimes the context gets lost.

        Times like this makes me miss Usenet.

        Liked by 1 person

      • April 24, 2016 at 11:43 am

        Thanks, Tom… They say that the act of personal attacks comes from a lack of compromise, a flawed position, or respect for the others’ opinions. Even though “1 Cor” is not a Mason, his/her flimsy attempts to undermine Freemasonry’s basic tenets touches a nerve with those that know better, but there is also a lesson to be learned here.

        He/She represents all those outside of Masonry that don’t understand it, and have no interest in understanding it. In fact, he/she also represents the ignorant among us that come into the Craft seeking what they will not find.

        Nothing is worse than someone preaching an opinion as fact. And then when their opinion is challenged by [contrasting] fact, resorting to personal attacks. This is a person who wants YOU to change, but has no interest in changing THEMSELVES. They used to call such buzzkills “bores”.

        Since this person refuses to bring the issue forward, that is sharing their learning with others, and enjoying the teachings of others, this is a record that is stuck repeating itself over & over, like every Howard Stern episode. After a while, you get tired of hearing the voice of the ignorant trying to suck you into an arguments of reason that they arrive at unarmed.

        I think everyone has been quite patient with him/her, and if there was any chance of them learning something I would suggest to continue to help them, but there isn’t.

        So the lesson here to me is [at least] that there are those that are passively unable to see the light, and there are those that actively try to tear you down. Neither one will listen, as their mind is made up. Essentially, they are ‘already right’, and there is no need to listen to dissenting opinions.

        So all I can do is thank those like me that hoped they could get through. You showing compassion, tolerance and restraint in the presence of such a loud and obvious disruptor is admirable. If they were capable of learning, instead of pointing out the errors of others, it certainly would have happened by now.

        Until this person apologizes, they will likely remain astonished at being treated as they treat others.

        Sad.

        Like

    • March 8, 2016 at 10:21 pm

      Homosexual activity has NO place in Free Masonary,Simple as that! SMIB!

      Liked by 1 person

      • Justaguy
        March 8, 2016 at 10:30 pm

        I definitely agree that homosexual activity has no place in Masonry. Nobody should be having sex in lodge, be it gay, straight or otherwise.

        But that’s not really what is at issue. The question is whether Freemasonry should enforce the doctrines of specific religious groups upon all Brothers. While individual lodges might be of a single faith, Masonry embraces men of all religious orientations, including those which do not police adherents’ sex lives.

        Like

    • Charles P
      March 14, 2016 at 8:29 am

      Amen Brother!!! The Bible is the Word of God and is our faith and practice so do we use the bible as it is written or do we rewrite the Bible to fit our needs? We all took a oath on the Bible then let us remember Gods word was it is written for we all will meet our maker and then the brothers can explain why they didn’t believe his words.

      Liked by 1 person

      • March 14, 2016 at 11:16 am

        so do we use the bible as it is written or do we rewrite the Bible to fit our needs?

        Charles, we have been re-writing the Bible since Christianity was developed. Our interpretations change constantly; if everyone believed the same things and never changed, we would all still be Roman Catholics. 😉

        Like

  18. Bruno Van Holland
    March 8, 2016 at 3:57 pm

    These statements seem narrow minded. I support freedom and if two women or two men want to spend the rest of their lives together and that’s what makes them happy, then I’m all for it.

    Like

  19. Rob Ray
    March 8, 2016 at 3:59 pm

    Proud of Most Worshipful Perry for his stance. It was the only way forward that makes sense to me.

    Like

  20. Rob Carter
    March 8, 2016 at 4:17 pm

    I’m a proud master mason from Canada and what they are doing in Georgia and Tennessee is apauling to say the least it goes against what we are taught to treat all brothers equally that includes religion and sex

    Liked by 1 person

    • CD
      March 19, 2016 at 2:12 am

      Oh, so you are talking about co-masonry. Ok

      Like

  21. Wor. Bro. Charles M. Masselli, PM
    March 8, 2016 at 4:20 pm

    E A Degree: Masonry units men of every country, sect, and opinion. And consiliates true friendship among those who might have otherwise remained at a perpetual distance!
    Grand Masters need to stop making decisions based on their personal opinions, and follow the rules of the order, treating ALL Brethren equally! SO MOTE IT BE!

    Liked by 1 person

  22. March 8, 2016 at 4:28 pm

    Tom, I have just posted the Official Decisions from the GLofDC withdrawing amity with GA and TN.

    http://freemasonsfordummies.blogspot.com/2016/03/gl-of-dc-suspends-relations-with-ga-and.html

    Like

    • March 8, 2016 at 4:41 pm

      Thanks Chris – I just updated my post with a link to yours.

      Like

  23. March 8, 2016 at 4:42 pm

    There are brothers in Tennessee seeking refuge under another Grand Lodge so they can demit from this discrimination. Hopefully a Grand Master of another jurisdiction will rise to the occasion and offer a smooth path that doesn’t demand the cooperation of the Grand Lodge of Tennessee.

    Like

  24. Dave
    March 8, 2016 at 4:48 pm

    How is this a problem when Lodges and Brothers minding their own business~? It sounds to me like someone isn’t minding their own business~? San Francisco has Gay Masons~? I wouldn’t have known had it not been brought to my attention.. Here some advise~? Go to your corners and mind your own business. San Francisco has been around a long time.. Gay Masons shouldn’t come as a big surprise.. I’ll attend lodge anywhere.. If you’re going to lodge and wondering what the sexual orientation of your Brothers Is~? You have bigger problems that may need to be addressed by a professional..

    Like

    • March 8, 2016 at 4:52 pm

      If

      Like

      • March 8, 2016 at 4:59 pm

        Oops. – If the GL of TN had not expelled a member for posting pictures of his wedding to his partner on Facebook then we wouldn’t be having this nationwide conversation. But GL of TN did decide to make it a big deal. Now the Fraternity as a whole must address the issue as we don’t live in a vacuum and news travels across the planet in moments.

        Like

    • Dave
      March 8, 2016 at 5:21 pm

      So San Francisco has decided to fight for the honor of Gay masons everywhere~? = Not minding their own business.. Ga – Tn expelling a brother over sexual orientation~? = not minding their own business.. For the record I don’t agree with the expulsion..

      Like

      • March 8, 2016 at 5:26 pm

        They are speaking out for the honor of the Fraternity. Read the edicts as sent by both DC and CA. They are protecting themselves and the Fraternity from the missteps of those GLs. CA is definitely minding their business as the actions of TN and GA have spread to the Masons of CA being uninvited for public ceremony and having active demonstrators. – The GLs of GA and TN do not act in a vacuum nor do their actions stop at their borders. This is the business of all Masons.

        Like

  25. Billy Barrett
    March 8, 2016 at 5:03 pm

    Have to say I love reading this! I for one uphold the biblical laws forbidding homosexual acts. It is wrong in the eyes of God! Thank you for not changing to the political correctness of our society today!

    Liked by 1 person

    • March 8, 2016 at 5:20 pm

      Those are your religious beliefs and you are welcome to freely practice them. However, they are not the religious beliefs of all members. As all religions within Masonry are treated equally to make Masonic law forbidding one over the other is clearly out of the bounds of Freemasonry.

      Like

    • Charles
      March 8, 2016 at 7:53 pm

      Thanks Billy for speaking out on your beliefs, I’ve been in several Masonic lodges over the past 30 years and one thing they have in common was they all had the Holy Bible resting on the alter with the compass and square. Each one of those Bibles said the same thing inside……

      Like

      • March 9, 2016 at 9:00 am

        Actually in my Lodge it’s a Volume of Sacred Law. We keep several on the altar that are not the Christian Bible.

        Like

    • March 13, 2016 at 9:43 pm

      Luke: Which of the volumes on your alter approve of Homosexuality?

      Liked by 1 person

      • March 13, 2016 at 10:06 pm

        Don’t you understand what he’s been saying? It’s not the books – the books are only symbols. The real question is: why do some interpretations of those books disaprove, while others don’t seem to care?

        Like

      • Justaguy
        March 14, 2016 at 3:51 pm

        Brothers in my lodge have taken their obligations on the Dao De Jing and The Book of the Law, neither of which condemn homosexuality. But that’s not really relevant – Masonry is not a religious organization, and does not exist to enforce religious taboos. So, even if all Masons agreed with your interpretation of the Bible, the lodge would not be the appropriate place to enforce those beliefs.

        Like

  26. Jody hersey
    March 8, 2016 at 5:12 pm

    I live in maine and this wouldn’t even be an issue. All men are created equal period. Kudos to the grand lodges of cal. DC.

    Liked by 1 person

  27. March 8, 2016 at 5:23 pm

    I don’t applaud or condemn any of the lodges in this situation. I do not care whether a brother is hetero or homo, that is none of my business as long as the brother doesn’t make it an issue. I took my oath on a Bible with a square and compass on it. If God brings judgement against that individual, that is between God and that individual. It shouldn’t affect the way we fellowship with our brothers. If the purpose of Masonry is to make good men better than that is something every man needs whether they are hetero or homo.

    Liked by 1 person

    • CD
      March 19, 2016 at 2:17 am

      Well, they sure do make it an issue by making it known without being asked.

      Like

      • March 19, 2016 at 5:34 am

        CD, you don’t appear to be up on the actual facts. Are you just commenting in protest?

        Like

  28. Whitey
    March 8, 2016 at 7:15 pm

    If you are a gay Mason and wish to attend a Masonic Lodge, you are eligible as long as you don’t “flaunt” your gayness……nor your political beliefs, etc etc. If your lodge (or Grand Lodge) has issues with this, then you should GUARD YOUR INNER DOOR

    Like

    • Charles
      March 8, 2016 at 7:55 pm

      AGREED…….

      Like

    • March 9, 2016 at 9:33 am

      So posting pictures of my wedding on Facebook constituates “flaunting”? The Lodge room doesn’t stop with the few hours a week we spend in the Masonic Lodge. It is all encompassing of our lives. It’s not “flaunting” it’s living life just like everyone else.

      Like

      • March 9, 2016 at 5:50 pm

        I would guarantee that if in the background check process of petitioning to become a Mason the people conducting their background checks would have found such pictures of homosexual activity it would have ended right then and there.

        Like

      • jimmcguigan
        March 9, 2016 at 7:31 pm

        A gay couple getting married isn’t flaunting homosexual activity just as a straight couple getting married isn’t flaunting heterosexual activity. Either way, there’s nothing in our oath that says we must exclude someone for who they love, nor is there anything in the Masonic code to address that. What I will say is that the GL’s that passed such an action are certainly led by and headed by a fool.

        Like

      • March 10, 2016 at 10:46 am

        freemasonry366 – I can assure that is not the case. I know several Lodges that are very, very welcoming to their gay members.

        Like

      • March 12, 2016 at 11:49 pm

        It maybe acceptable in California and Indiana but not in Tenn and Ga and I would say most of the Southern GLs. The background check would ferret out this kind of thing at least in our state. The GL of California don’t get to make the rules for all GLs and enforce their choices on all others and that should be obvious now.

        Like

  29. March 8, 2016 at 7:19 pm

    Reblogged this on Wire Telegram.

    Like

  30. Rolly Cavan
    March 8, 2016 at 8:00 pm

    All brothers have gone this way before. That is, the ceremony of our initiation to our admission to the ancient and honorable fraternity, good men who are strictly obedient to its precepts. We regard the volume of the sacred law (The Bible), as the unerring standard of truth and justice, where we find the important duties we owe to God, neighbor, and ourselves. What is set for us in the “Unerring Standards’ is morally and fundamentally right, but in the present political environment, it is politically wrong. If the popular opinion of the craft is to deviate from the standards in order to be politically right, I’m afraid, this notion will wreck the foundation of the fraternity. Faithfully keeping the ancient Landmarks is one reason the fraternity still exists.

    Like

    • Charles
      March 8, 2016 at 8:10 pm

      Very well said Rolly……Bravo

      Like

  31. March 8, 2016 at 8:10 pm

    For the brothers who are thinking that the Bible is the heart of our morality, you need to understand that there are hundreds of different Christian denominations, all with slightly (or majorly) different interpretations – and many do not consider homosexuality to be an issue.

    Even Anderson, understanding that there could be issues with the specific interpretations of various denominations, and in 1738 modified the Constitutions to include this:

    “In ancient Times, the Christian Masons were charged to comply with the Christian usages of each country where they traveled or worked; being found in all nations, even of divers religions. They are generally charged to adhere to that religion in which all men agree (leaving each brother to his own particular opinions).”

    The point here is that Anderson is acknowledging that there will be variations of interpretation, and that we should not let those interfere with the more important aspects of brotherly love, charity, and self improvement.

    Like

  32. March 8, 2016 at 8:31 pm

    What is funny is the homophobic reaction by some of the Brethren. It is really laughable. It is as if they actually think that Freemasonry is a “queer free zone”. The pure ignorance is stunning, but the reactions are both laughable and surprising. Grand Lodges like our House and Senate are run by law, not by social media. Take this argument to Lodge and not to Facebook. Please keep in mind that your constitution settles this, not your opinion, be mindful, not emotional, be kind to each other. Most of all, remember that his trial is also your trial, and you will both lose something.

    Like

    • March 8, 2016 at 8:39 pm

      No, it’s not funny. It’s easy to dismiss some as fundamentalist thinking, but let’s keep in mind that all of our brothers are entitled to some measure of respect. Their objection to gay men is analogous to those brothers who observe other religious injunctions.

      Being derisive is not going to help work out an amicable resolution.

      Like

  33. J.K.
    March 9, 2016 at 12:29 am

    I suppose next everyone is going to want Tennessee Grand Lodge to recognize Prince Hall Masons as well. Don’t hear anyone making a stink about that! But I’m sure they will now that I brought it up.

    Like

  34. March 9, 2016 at 1:39 am

    Homophobia, Racism and all forms of HATRED have no place in Freemasonry. Hats off to California GL for having the guts to take a strong stand against such unacceptable behavior from the GLs in the HATE BELT states. Many of us stand together with the GM of California in being STRAIGHT, BUT NOT NARROW.

    Like

  35. saidi
    March 9, 2016 at 1:42 am

    How ca I join with this secret society?

    Like

  36. David Cook
    March 9, 2016 at 3:44 am

    As a MM I find this whole episode ridiculous. Expelling Brethren based on their sexuality and enforcing your own religious doctrines on others isn’t what FMy, as a non-religious/non-political fraternity, is about.

    If we start to expel Brothers for things in one VoSL then surely we should be expelling other Brethren based on other passages in the same VoSL.

    Examples: Divorce, adultery and promiscuity et al

    (Matt: 5.32)Those that have divorced their wives for any other reason than sexual immorality or have married a divorced woman thereby committing adultery

    (Matt: 5:28) But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart

    (Gal: 5.19-21) Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    If we start to expel Brethren based on their sexual orientation, because it is not supported by a VoSL, then surely GLs should be expelling Brethren based on other passages of scripture that would prevent many Brethren from “inheriting the Kingdom of God!?

    Unless it is allowed, by the Supreme Being of your choosing, to pick which pieces of scripture you will enforce and which you will ignore, I’m pretty sure if we go down this route a lot of lodges will become very lonely places!

    Like

  37. R.'. W.". Joel A. Hilsenrath
    March 9, 2016 at 7:19 am

    This issue should have been dealt with by the Conference of Grand Masters.

    Like

    • March 9, 2016 at 8:44 am

      Dealt with how? An arm wrestling contest?

      COGMNA just met last month, and I’m sure the issues were discussed because Chris Hodapp gave a presentation about this.

      Like

  38. Brad B
    March 9, 2016 at 11:26 am

    Would this affect the Youth Orders communicating with chapters in these states as well?

    Like

  39. Rev.Clinton Joe Keller
    March 9, 2016 at 12:32 pm

    I Stand with Georgia & Tenn. All Masons profess a belief in “a supreme beining” and placed their hand on the Bible while taking their obligation. GOD’S word defines homosexual activity as sin. In fact he destroyed Sodom because it it.(That’s why it’s called Sodomy). Just because our “modern liberal generation” accepts it that doesn’t make it any less of a sin. The book of Revelation states that we will all stand before God at the Great White Throne Judgement and snswer for our sins. GOD’S word is the same yesterday today and forever. It never changes. Therefore I chose to stand with Georgia &Tenn. on this..
    Rev. C. J. Keller PM Ionic Lodge 312 AF&AM

    Liked by 1 person

    • March 9, 2016 at 2:26 pm

      Actually any Volume of Sacred Law may be used. The Christian dogma that you profess is not my religion. Therefore, it’s not a sin for me.

      Like

    • March 13, 2016 at 11:30 pm

      As for calling is a religious sin has no baring on what a mason is. We are not a religious organization and if you think we are you definitely joined the wrong fraternity. Besides I am pretty sure both those states don’t recognize Prince Hall Freemasons. I hope the ban becomes perminate no room in the fraternity for that hate. If you want that hate I sure the KKK is still looking for members because thats not us.

      Like

      • March 14, 2016 at 11:31 am

        shadow, please let’s not start throwing the KKK around here. The subject is sensitive enough without resorting to insulting people.

        Like

      • Lui
        March 19, 2016 at 10:09 am

        It should be brought up. I’m amazed that 2 brothers get I belive “expelled” and everyone goes crazy yet there are 8 states last I checked that don’t recognize a legitimate GL and nothing.

        Like

  40. Mark Clemons
    March 9, 2016 at 1:27 pm

    This is great! Bring on equality! We are all on the level and should be treated as such. Now we need to push for 3 more things:

    We need to sever our ties with masons that do not support equality, such as: George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and James Madison. These men obviously did not see men as their equal since they owned slaves and prevented freed ones from joining masonry.
    All Grand Lodges of every state needs to stop recognizing masons from Washington, D.C., and Washington state, since they bear the name of a slave owner.
    Women are just as worthy and well qualified to be masons, too.

    HOW CAN WE SAY “without reference to race, creed, sexual orientation, specific religion or national origin.” WITHOUT INCLUDING GENDER???

    I have many friends that are women and identify as men, but cannot become masons.

    WE NEED TO STAND UP FOR THOSE WHO ARE NOT BEING VIEWED AS EQUALS!!!

    Like

    • March 9, 2016 at 2:30 pm

      Mark I think you’re reaching just a little bit.
      1) Those were slaves and were not equal in society at the time.
      2) There are jurisdictions that allow women. No one is advocating for UGLE descended and amicable Lodges to change to that.
      3) Transgender males who are now considered male by law are for all intents and purposes male. Why would they be barred entrance?

      Like

      • Mark Clemons
        March 9, 2016 at 4:54 pm

        1) They were men. They were human beings. They were bought and sold like livestock. They were equal in the eyes of the GAOTU. This is like the Confederate Flag. Needs to not only be removed from the present and future, but needs its past removed as well.
        2) That’s great, but we need to sever ties with any jurisdiction that does not allow women.
        3) This is great. I know a lady that asked me about it. She still has the appearance of a woman but identifies male.

        Like

    • jimmcguigan
      March 9, 2016 at 3:32 pm

      You’re stretching it Mark. No need to go to extremes. The men of the 1700’s were good men by standards of their day and I’d like to think they did their best to honor the intentions of Masonry even if society has evolved since them. I realize that we live in a divisive and politically charged environment, but there really is no place for politics in our fraternity. Those who wish to introduce politics or divide us by specific religious beliefs should resign and I include the Grand Lodge of KY in that. When the question is asked about what makes a man a mason, the question has only one answer. To violate that is to show oneself to be unbecoming and unworthy of wearing the square and compasses.

      Like

      • jimmcguigan
        March 9, 2016 at 3:33 pm

        I meant GA and TN.

        Like

      • Mark Clemons
        March 9, 2016 at 4:59 pm

        If the intentions of masonry was to say that all men are on the level, then all men should have equal opportunity to join.

        I am glad about all the progress being made. I was talking to a couple that have been partners for years. They just petitioned in CA. I am so happy for them. They are great. They even started a chapter (can’t remember where) for NAMBLA. They will definitely add to the betterment of masonry.

        Like

      • March 9, 2016 at 6:14 pm

        Mark, I suspect that you are trolling. Please keep to the topic, or else I will remove your comments.

        This is a serious matter. There are good brothers on both sides of this issue, and ultimately we should be working for some common ground – and not throwing irrelevant things into the mix.

        Like

      • jimmcguigan
        March 9, 2016 at 7:23 pm

        That is completely inappropriate. I would hope that the moderator of the group would either delete your unworthy and inaccurate comments or just delete the whole thread.

        Like

    • Justaguy
      March 9, 2016 at 5:44 pm

      Of course we should find fault with Bro’s Jefferson and Washington – as well as countless other Masons who were involved in the slave trade. I’m not sure how one would sever or establish ties with them, as they are no longer with us. You seem to be making the point that because Masons in past years acted with cruelty towards their fellow men, we cannot be judged today. I would seek a different lesson – that sometimes we can be blind to narrow prejudices because they are widely shared in our social circles.

      As far as bringing up NAMBLA, such vile stereotypes have no place in a conversation between and about Brothers.

      Like

    • March 9, 2016 at 6:04 pm

      OMG I hope some are just stirring the pot….now talking of transgender….women who view themselves as men petitioning our order and another who talks of a homo coupes that are petitioning his lodge and have started a NAMBLA chapter. This is all an abomination to freemasonry and will never be accepted in the Gls in the southern states and I’m proud of it.

      Like

      • jimmcguigan
        March 9, 2016 at 7:16 pm

        A Mason would not make any such comparison.

        Like

    • CD
      March 19, 2016 at 2:26 am

      “We are all on the level”

      How high a level have you set for yourself?

      Like

  41. WB Leonard T. Hutchinson
    March 9, 2016 at 2:25 pm

    Our Lodge chose to sponsor a BSA troop that a church had rejected over this issue. After 56 years a Mason and 7 as a DeMolay, I do not support Grand Lodges that redefine morality beyond my obligations. I would sooner transfer my membership to a different Grand Lodge jurisdiction and leave the bigots to their ways.

    Like

  42. Fred Buck
    March 9, 2016 at 8:15 pm

    If the GL of GA and TN want to bar men from becoming or being masons because they don’t like their beliefs and/or their lifestyle choices……let them do it. Pretty soon they’ll be discriminating against anyone who doesn’t go to the same church as they do, and if you get down to it, they’ll really only agree with the beliefs of a few of those who do go to their church….. and then if they look close enough, they won’t agree with those few either, so there will only be room for themselves in their lodge. A lodge of one…..won’t that be perfect? Sounds like hate to me. If it gets that way here in NC I’m out. Being a free-thinker I won’t fit in. And I’m sure that will be fine with them. Then i’ll affiliate with a masonic lodge that upholds true masonry….the kind that brings light to the world via knowledge, truth, goodness, and beauty. That’s what we should be doing!

    If you’re lodge isn’t doing that…..they’re not practicing true masonry…..period!

    If you want to start another branch of masonry that brings darkness, hate, separation, dissent, bigotry, into the world, then you’ll have to do it without me. And my flag will be raised against you.

    Like

  43. Mark Clemons
    March 9, 2016 at 9:00 pm

    Is there a list of sacred volumes that masons can take the oath on?

    Like

    • March 9, 2016 at 9:36 pm

      You would have to check with your Grand Lodge; some do not have a list at all.

      Like

  44. Tim
    March 10, 2016 at 12:25 am

    Please tell me where the preambles in the 3 degrees come from, explain the “Bible Lecture” in the Entered Apprentice Degree, the very precise description of the columns, (located at whose porch?), how the Fellowcraft password came about, the passage used before a candidate is brought to light, and what were the craftsman working on when they attempted to forcibly gain the word?????? Yep, it ALL comes out of the HOLY BIBLE. That same Bible that millions of masons have taken their obligations on, and which the US Courts use to swear in witnesses. Freemasonry is deeply, firmly, and fastly rooted in the Holy Bible, so much so as to remove every symbolism, lecture, passage, or reference from it, would render Freemasonry unrecognizable! This SAME Bible condemns homosexuality in the Old AND New Testaments and I firmly believe that homosexuality is incompatible with a FRATERNITY as old and noble as Freemasonry. When you start making exceptions there is no way to seal the hole in the dam, women who “feel” like men will be the next at the door. This fraternity has lasted for eons because of it’s resistance to change and unwillingness to bow to the winds of political correctness. I am proud to be a Georgia 25 year Mason/ Past Master/ KYCH Recipient, of one of the oldest lodges in the state(and country). I pray that God gives us the strength to weather the hate from those, who through ignorance, wish to persecute us, for standing upright in our several stations before God and man, and being loyal to the laws of morality and Godliness. So Mote It Be!

    Liked by 1 person

    • March 10, 2016 at 6:01 am

      Tim, I think that you’ve missed the points that others have tried to make: not every denomination interprets the Bible the same way. Some take a more literal interpretation, while others read it as metaphorical, if not allegorical.

      Thus is what Anderson had in mind when he wrote “leaving their particular opinions to themselves.”

      If we all had the same interpretation of the Bible, we’d all still be Roman Catholic. 🙂

      Like

  45. March 10, 2016 at 6:03 am

    Come on, Bogus, insulting people isn’t going to get us anywhere.

    Like

  46. David Cook
    March 10, 2016 at 9:28 am

    I replied earlier to this blog, but kept thinking about it.

    So a couple GL have banished people with alternative lifestyles to themselves based on scripture found in the VoSL they use.

    Ok so based on that book they should also banish Catholics; after all they blatantly worship idol’s; what about Jewish masons? They don’t recognise Jesus as the messiah so they’re going to burn in hellfire for an eternity!

    And we probably shouldn’t ask them their views on Muslim, Hindu or Sikh masons!

    If only there was an organisation they could join with similar views.

    Oh wait there is……

    The KKK!!!

    Like

    • March 10, 2016 at 11:57 am

      Dave, you were doing okay until that last bit. Please refrain from name calling. We’re after a conversation in which things can be resolved – name calling won’t help.

      Like

      • David Cook
        March 10, 2016 at 9:13 pm

        I apologise if you believe I was name calling; not my intention. My intention was to highlight that; as soon as Brethren start to infer their own religious believes/doctrines on others we start to go down a slippery path of intolerance, fundamentalism and separatism. This, in my humble opinion, is not what Freemasonry is about.

        Correct me if I am wrong; but wasn’t Albert Pike involved in the establishment of the KKK?

        Regardless of what the intention may have been at its inception; it evolved into something no self respecting FM would wish to join.

        IMHO this latest attack on Brethren, based on their sexual orientation (which is genetic and not through choice) is a slippery path indeed and who knows were it will end.

        Once again please accept my apologise as discord was not my intention.

        Like

  47. March 10, 2016 at 10:41 am

    The behavior of the “brethren” in this discussion, defending homophobia is deplorable. Look at the map-charts for PRINCE HALL RECOGNITION and NON RECOGNITION. The few remaining NON RECOGNITION states are in what I call the HATE BELT. There’s a definite pattern here. Maybe Masons in the HATE BELT states don’t deserve to be recognized by good Masons.

    Like

    • March 10, 2016 at 11:54 am

      Douglas, please refrain from describing that area as the “hate belt.” Yes, obviously there is a pattern, but there are many factors at work. Also, name calling is not going to help resolve the issues.

      Like

  48. March 10, 2016 at 11:21 am

    To the person who said that because some, not all, of the current FM traditions have been borrowed from the Hebrew Bible and the christian new testament, your logic is flawed. It is true that when many lectures were created, the christian and Hebrew bibles were used for inspiration-even quoting some passages, but that is not because it was right. It was because back then other religions were persecuted by the catholic church & popes, who had a direct way of dealing with anything they deemed ‘offensive to the Lord’.

    So you can’t pick & choose, then say the whole thing isn’t just a “rule & guide”, but rather must be adhered to to the letter-interpretation be damned. If you wish to take such a narrow view, cherry-picking such scriptures for references that support your argument, while ignoring those that don’t, then you should watch this video on the matter:

    Something other cherry-pickers should think about when waving their finger in the air…

    Like

  49. March 10, 2016 at 12:00 pm

    Isn’t it strange that they all forget that the Leviticus verse, as interpreted after many translations, does not mention women? Is homosexuality OK as long as you are not a man? So, is the religious right OK with Lesbians? And what then about Trannies?

    It is far easier to justify your hate for all instead of actually reading the verse you hit people over the head with… Everyone peddling this rubbish is taking the easy way out instead of putting their opinions (annoyingly stated as truth) to the test of scrutiny.

    Your opinions do not become truth after you have believed in them long enough.

    Like

    • March 10, 2016 at 12:24 pm

      Most people don’t think outside of their religion because it’s something that they have internalized. Approaching it as a rational exercise probably is not going to work.

      Better that we try to focus on what we do agree on, what we have in common, and then let’s decide where we should take this.

      Liked by 1 person

    • March 15, 2016 at 5:00 am

      Romans 1:26-28 ESV / 1,329 helpful votes

      For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
      This should cover the scripture on women. Do I need to find the one on beastiality or are going to except this group too?

      Like

      • March 15, 2016 at 8:13 am

        Since when is it written that any man of legal age, etc. is a slippery slope?

        Like

  50. March 10, 2016 at 6:04 pm

    As this gets nastier with those having less light than those that do going at each other, I’d like to remind all involved (at least the Masons, as we can’t tell who is an anti-Masonic or other kind of troll), that this is a public forum. Let me repeat that for the haters: PUBLIC.

    Going against the law (anti-equal marriage) is frowned upon(see your EA Charge). Talking smack about the Fraternity is always bad. You may not realize it, but even the morally wrong posters here are-by virtue of the nature of their opinions-are hurting MY Lodge, District, State. Yes. Masons promoting inequality, bias, prejudice, and flat out hate, do so giving the public the impression that your minority opinion is the way Masonry is everywhere.

    So while it’s fun for you to bash this or that (today LBGT, tomorrow it will be… ?), you are hurting every single Lodge represented here or not. You are portraying Masonry in a bad, inaccurate light, and you are therefore DIRECTLY impacting my Lodge’s ability to grow.

    Your anonymity (whether trolling or a Mason) has emboldened you to actively corrode the good of the Craft in the eyes of those who matter most to my Fraternity: The Petitioners I will now never meet.

    So I call on all those with darkness & hate in their hearts, claiming as fact that equality is un-Masonic, or that Masonry supports such prejudices, to stop. Now. You are doing your own Lodge, as well as mine, no service. Most everyone has tried to counter your un-Masonic comments as best we can, but those not understanding the good counsel shouted in their ear now have to take responsibility, and be accountable to the GAOTU for their actions.

    Conversations like these, with devising topics and expressed opinions do NOT. Ever. Belong in a public forum. The damage of each of those comments is incalculable.

    You embarrass us all by not knowing this.

    pat

    P.S. Sorry Tom, to have waited this long to remind the Brothers. Our offline discussion reminded me that some will always need reminding.

    Liked by 2 people

  51. Charles Dillard
    March 12, 2016 at 7:32 pm

    IF the GL of TN is enforcing CURRENT CODE, NO DISCRIMINATION HAS BEEN COMMITTED. If the current code states no homosexual activity, the GL would be in err not enforcing it. We vowed to follow Masonic Code. Period. A violation of code is violation period.

    Like

    • March 12, 2016 at 7:46 pm

      Charles, are you suggesting that it’s right – Masonic ally speaking – to enforce a code that is discriminatory?

      TN also has a prohibition on drunkenness, swearing, and sharing of pornography. How many brothers are up on charges right now?

      Like

      • CD
        March 19, 2016 at 1:05 pm

        Good to see two very active homosexuals populating the whole tread.

        Like

  52. March 13, 2016 at 11:39 pm

    First off woman freemasons I don’t agree with thats why we have Eastern Star, second we are not a religious organization so when you say no place for homosexuality its an invalid point because WE ARE NOT A RELIGIOUS organization. Also if you want to spread hate, I am sure you don’t have to go far to get your white hooded cloak it might be more what you are looking for.In fact isn’t and not 100% sure on this TN and Georgia two states that don’t recognize Prince Hall Freemasons. So while I hate to see a brothers fall. I hope the ones that caused this all get removed from the fraternity. Maybe the decent brothers you actually accept men for who they are and don’t judge will be in power.

    Like

    • CD
      March 19, 2016 at 2:36 am

      Aren’t you now discriminating against women?

      Like

      • March 19, 2016 at 5:10 am

        You do know what a fraternity is men need a place when other men can help them to become better men. A lot more of institutes have been lost. No women men need this in regards to a place where they can leave all their problems behind for a few short hours. Its been like this over 2 centuries. Its not about discrimination. You joined the fraternity knowing this and now want to disturb the harmony of the craft. Go back and take a very long look at first degree teachings.

        Like

      • March 19, 2016 at 5:52 am

        Nobody is talking about women in the fraternity. The issue is about homosexual men being expelled.

        Like

  53. March 15, 2016 at 8:16 am

    And since when has any one VSL dictated what the fraternity will do? The catholic, christian, and hebrew bibles were all written by man, and while we may derive insight from any of them, they are not the only VSLs, nor is a particular version, year, and publisher/translator of any acceptable VSL the guide to be ruled by.

    So why is everyone getting all hung up on one version of one translation of one VSL?

    Liked by 1 person

    • March 15, 2016 at 8:25 am

      That’s been my question all along. If there were no other way to interpret the books, then we would all still be Catholics.

      Liked by 1 person

      • March 15, 2016 at 4:49 pm

        You’ll hear me say this a lot, Tom: Most people who are right agree with me.

        Liked by 1 person

  54. Fred Buck
    March 19, 2016 at 9:37 am

    Round and round it goes, And where it stops nobody knows!

    I just wanted to remind my Brothers of another instance of prejudice going on even as we speak, but no one seems to care very much. That is the banning of Pagans from the GL of Florida. I’m sure the same people who have banned Afro-Americans and Gay people will next turn their attention to the Pagans (including all gnostics, cabalists, magicians, classicists, or pagans of any description, including the indigenous natives of this land) from taking part in Masonry in their state. I just want to want to remind everyone of the amazing debt we owe to paganism in our craft.

    Two pagans we revere…..right off the cuff are, Hirem Abiff (Egyptian) and Pythagoras (Greek).

    I would go on to say, that much of our way of thinking in masonry, concerning freedom, democracy, individual rights, learning, education come not from the religions of the Book, but from the philosophers of ancient Greece.
    In other words, from classic pagan thinkers who believed that the pursuit of the Good, the True, and the Beautiful was the greatest purpose in life… And that this sacred pursuit would one day lead mankind to true Wisdom.

    If you cut yourself off from Wisdom, you have lost your way!

    Perhaps we all need to go back and read Plato. That we might receive a little badly needed wisdom at this time of separation.

    Let us not forget our truest purpose

    Like

  55. Hugh watson
    March 22, 2016 at 4:06 pm

    Our Grand Lodge did vote for this and the brothers spoke, and it was a majority. Each state can do as they wish because each state is sovereign in the US and who are we to criticize other states. We can disagree without being disagreeable as Masons should.

    Like

    • April 4, 2016 at 9:23 pm

      As it should be….none of this would have happened if the GL of Calif had not tried to force their values and practices on other GLs. It has sparked good conversation between the brotherhood. I have spoken with many other brother Masons about this subject and the ones I engaged right on up to our WM all believe as I do, the Lodge is no place for such a lifestyle. Live and let live but don’t ask and don’t tell.

      Like

  56. John Houser
    April 3, 2016 at 6:17 pm

    I am of the mind set “best suited”.

    Like

  57. 1 Corinthians 6:9
    April 21, 2016 at 11:12 am

    Your MM obligation clearly states that homosexuals aren’t allowed so why is this even being discussed or litigated at the GL level? Those of you that are so hyper-opposed to the actions of Georgia and Tennessee are clearly too attached to the media driven circus of political correctness and quite frankly it makes you appear weak in character. Get a hold of yourselves and realize you belong to an upstanding men’s fraternity that promotes strong moral values which are designed to make good men better. Don’t become one of the masses, you’re Masons for God’s sake, no a bunch of wishy-washy pansies! If you allow them to, the detractors will destroy us like they did the Boy Scouts.

    Like

    • April 21, 2016 at 4:21 pm

      The issue is that most people no longer see homosexuality as a moral failing; there’s no sin there. Years of association with homosexuals has enabled people to see them as just… people.

      And that’s why it’s being discussed – it’s not out of political correctness, it’s out of the understanding that simply being homosexual does not necessarily make for a poor Mason. The case in question is a good example – the two men were, but all other accounts, good men and Masons. The guys in their own lodge did not have any issues with them. It’s time to get those old rules changed.

      Like

      • April 21, 2016 at 10:01 pm

        Tom, I would beg to differ……depends on the region of the country and weather this is an excepted practice. Homosexual marriage is being shoved on us by a government that is pushing a homo-transgender agenda. I know a lot of people all over the country while I travel and the topic has come up in conversation many times because of the stance my state has taken and I have spoken with many masons I know across this country that hold the same mindset as I do. I have not spoken to any mason brother that has to my face has voiced support for allowing OPENLY gay men access to our fraternity. Many of these people I have spoken to are not religious in anyway. The TN GL purged these men for a reason and I’m sure that some brother masons in their lodge did bring to the attention of their GL this open display of conduct.

        Like

      • April 22, 2016 at 5:36 am

        Charles, I’ll accept that there is a regional factor here.

        That said, in my own lodge, there’s no sense of any forced gay agenda at work. In fact, I recall being surprised when I was a new Mason that most of the guys in my lodge (especially the older ones) had no problem with the gay brothers here. It was an “open secret,” and nobody seemed to care.

        As to Bros. Clark and Henderson, if there is any evidence that the members of their own lodge had an issue with it, it has yet to surface. The charges originated elsewhere, and nobody from there lodge seemed to have been involved.

        Like

      • April 22, 2016 at 7:51 am

        So how do you suppose it got back to the GL if a brother Mason in that lodge had not reported it?

        Liked by 1 person

      • April 24, 2016 at 6:04 am

        They were able to have a legal wedding ceremony, and they posted the pictures on Facebook. Somebody forwarded those pics to someone in the GL, and they were charged with presumed homosexual behavior.

        Like

    • April 22, 2016 at 2:46 pm

      Homosexual men didn’t ruin boy scouts women did. As soon as they let women in it fell. Why do you think there is such a push not to ha e female freemasons. The MM degree in fact all them never mention women once until the third and it’s not even about making them better.

      Like

      • 1 Corinthians 6:9
        April 22, 2016 at 2:52 pm

        The 3rd° actually says that women cannot be Masons as it also says about other descriptions of people but is soon as someone tries to exclude a homosexual all hell breaks loose and the comments from some of the Masons on this forum are a perfect example.

        Like

      • April 24, 2016 at 5:53 am

        Just to be pedantic, the MM obligations in the US (Preston Webb form) does not say that women can’t be Masons. It says that you will not be present at nor give your consent to doing so. If somebody in your lodge tries to bring in a woman, then you’re not allowed to participate. But you have no say about women Masons from other jurisdictions.

        Like

      • April 22, 2016 at 2:58 pm

        Very confused at the obligation you took. Never excludes anyone in the obligation is says we should honour certain people never says excludes. Very disconcerting if there is an obligation out there that says that. Reason hell broke loose because TN shamed brothers and then threatened their supporters t has nothing to do with the fact ok part of it had to do with because they were gay but the fact is they shamed two breathern and it put us in the news which made us look really bad. Someone made a good point if even one brother didn’t join because of this that GL in both states should step down immediately and publicly apologize.

        Like

      • 1 Corinthians 6:9
        April 22, 2016 at 3:31 pm

        Andrews Behring Breivik killed 77 kids in a youth group in Olso, Norway while sporting the square and compass and not much was said about his affiliation with freemasonry yet you think what the GL of Tennessee did will give us a bad name? They were simply doing what they were supposed to be doing and removing members who shouldn’t be in the fraternity.

        Liked by 1 person

      • April 24, 2016 at 6:02 am

        I don’t think anyone is arguing that GL TN didn’t follow the rules. The issue is that they followed them in a very selective and pointed manner at two brothers who were, by all other reports, good men, and active, helpful brothers who were not only active I their lodge, but in various appendant bodies.

        There are a number of other conditions in the rule that considers homosexual behavior to be against the code, but there don’t seem to be any brothers being expelled for cohabitation, porn, public drunkenness, etc.

        The members of the lodge knew Clark and Henderson were a couple when they came in. Nobody had a problem with it then. But ten years later the GL (not the lodge, mind you) decides to prefer charges. That’s persecution with an agenda.

        Like

  58. 1 Corinthians 6:9
    April 21, 2016 at 11:32 am

    In case there’s any confusion:

    lib·er·tine
    ˈlibərˌtēn

    noun
    1.
    a person, especially a man, who behaves without moral principles or a sense of responsibility, especially in sexual matters.
    synonyms: philanderer, playboy, rake, roué, Don Juan, Lothario, Casanova, Romeo; More
    2.
    a person who rejects accepted opinions in matters of religion; a freethinker.
    adjective
    1.
    characterized by a disregard of morality, especially in sexual matters.
    “his more libertine impulses”
    2.
    freethinking in matters of religion.

    Like

  59. 1 Corinthians 6:9
    April 21, 2016 at 4:53 pm

    A change in perception doesn’t change the act, which by definition in the book on the alter by which you placed your hands and took on an obligation, says is immoral. Homosexuals don’t make poor Masons anymore than women make poor Masons because the two are not allowed to become a Masons in the first place. And yes, this has everything to do with political correctness because I’ve seen brothers removed for other reasons that never flagged the attention of the GL of California or any other GL for that matter. This is a political hot button plain and simple and everyone who wants to destroy people or organizations that stand for high moral character get targeted, called out, shunned and ridiculed by the political correctness police. Masonry doesn’t have to change, it’s done a fine job for many years on it’s own. If you want to “change the old rules” just remember the average age of the fraternity. If homosexuality is allowed, it won’t stop there and you will see many members stop coming to lodge. But hey, equality wins right? There will be nothing more than historical papers, pictures and an occasional mention on the History Channel left behind when the “rule changers” move on and target another group that doesn’t meet their standards of acceptance.

    Like

    • Justaguy
      April 21, 2016 at 5:03 pm

      I didn’t take my obligation on the Bible, and the Bible doesn’t govern who can and cannot be a Mason. Masonry is not a religious organization, and a Grand Lodge has no business enforcing the specific religious beliefs of some of its members.

      Like

      • 1 Corinthians 6:9
        April 21, 2016 at 6:31 pm

        I didn’t say Masonry was a religion but like it or not, many things in Masonry are based on the Holy Bible and you will never be able to separate Masonic degrees, allegory and the like from it. Homosexuality cannot exist in the same arena as Masonry, the two just don’t mix unless that is, you want to change the Bible too. The Bible doesn’t govern who can and can’t be a Mason but the obligation can and that what this all goes back to.

        Like

      • 1 Corinthians 6:9
        April 21, 2016 at 6:35 pm

        One more thing, homosexuality is not a religion but thanks for showing your colors.

        Like

    • April 21, 2016 at 9:02 pm

      You appear to have missed the comments earlier which mention that not all Christians interpret the Bible in a literal fashion; that is, many interpret it as a metaphorical or allegorical text.

      Many non-Christians take their obs on the Bible for symbolical reasons, but certainly do not hold it as a literal book.

      Like

      • 1 Corinthians 6:9
        April 21, 2016 at 9:34 pm

        Aside from whatever book is present, the obligation in and of itself is not subjective.

        Like

      • April 22, 2016 at 4:40 am

        I fail to see your point. The obs are not subjective, but neither do they mention one’s sexuality.

        Like

      • 1 Corinthians 6:9
        April 22, 2016 at 5:59 am

        See my previous post on libertines. I know you don’t agree but that’s okay, we can agree to disagree and still remain brothers. Have a great Friday.

        Like

      • April 22, 2016 at 6:46 am

        To me, the idea of “libertine” in this context is skewed. While it is defined as someone with loose sexual morals, you are using the Bible to further refine that definition so that homosexuals are implicitly libertines.

        To me, a couple (like Clark and Henderson, for example), who have a caring, monogamous relationship can hardly be called hedonists or libertines.

        But we can all agree that it’s nice that the weekend is upon us, right? 🙂

        Like

      • April 22, 2016 at 1:45 pm

        Every rabbi I have talked to has told me that they never considered the bible a historical account, or having any basis in reality. It is a book of stories, some much older than others, handed down for hundreds or thousands of years prior to the Jews putting them into a collection. It is a book of faith, not verbatim. When Mohamed poorly plagiarized it, he made up all kinds of changes to the stories to suit his anger at being notified that he was not a Jewish Prophet (which he really wanted them to say).
        .
        No serious scholar takes these works, and the works not used in the bible, as true, fact, or historical record. History is told through the lens of the observer. Trying to read into ancient stories of morality our modern (localized) concerns for our own political fears, issues, and talking points is absurd.
        .
        Anyone thinking a book of stories is a replacement for our constitution (we all know which party is trying to do this in the US) is more dangerous to us than King George V was to what would become the USA.
        .
        And what is even worse for Masons is fixing your opinion that others should honor & follow, then warping every conceivable document you can to support your views. If a 2,000 year old story seems to back your insane opinions (and worse when God ‘speaks’ to you), I can guarantee the authors had no idea their words would be so twisted and perverted. How is this different from Hitler’s expeditions to find ‘proof’ of Arian supremacy (see Ahnenerbe) and occult powers?
        .
        Wait until you have a problem before pushing your solution onto others.
        .

        Liked by 1 person

    • April 22, 2016 at 5:41 am

      In regard to the idea of taking the Bible literally and that affecting one’s obligations, consider that in some jurisdictions the obs are taken on completely different books. Are those guys any less obligated?

      Even more, in a few jurisdictions, the book on which they are obligated is blank, representing that all VSLs have the same underlying meaning. Are those guys any less obligated?

      Liked by 1 person

      • 1 Corinthians 6:9
        April 22, 2016 at 6:03 am

        Again, you’d have to remove all references of King Soloman and every Bible verse in our work which would change everything. Can’t be done.

        Liked by 1 person

      • April 22, 2016 at 6:40 am

        Our tools are symbolic, and they teach lessons through allegory and symbolism. It so happens that we use stories from the Bible, mainly because in the 1600s and 1700s, that was the one book that all gentlemen would have been familiar with.

        And even at that, our EA and FC degrees themselves don’t really reference the Bible stories except tangentially. It’s not until the MM and the other YR degrees (which came along later) that we see actual morality plays.

        But still, those brothers who are obligated on other VSLs – are they any less obligated?

        Liked by 1 person

      • 1 Corinthians 6:9
        April 22, 2016 at 8:03 am

        The Bible is referenced throughout the EA and FC degrees as well as their respective lectures. You can’t water it down or deny it. We don’t do anything without first invoking the Blessing of Diety. Homosexuality subscribes to no religion which is another disqualifier. The main focus of a homosexual lifestyle is sex, it’s in all of their retoric and branding. They shun and make fun of religion. There is absolutely no way you or anyone else can convince me otherwise. We shouldn’t change the foundation of our fraternity so we don’t look bad to pointless individuals bent on political correctness.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Justaguy
        April 22, 2016 at 10:43 am

        “We don’t do anything without first invoking the Blessing of Diety.”
        Yes, but it is kept vague enough to allow all Masons to refer to their particular religious orientation. There are Masons of all religious traditions – Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Pagan, Daoist, etc.. Insisting that the Grand Architect of the Universe is a Christian deity excludes all non-Christian Masons from participating in rituals as equal Brothers.

        “Homosexuality subscribes to no religion”
        That doesn’t make any sense. Heterosexuality doesn’t subscribe to a religion either. People of different sexual orientations can adhere to any or no religion.

        “The main focus of a homosexual lifestyle is sex, it’s in all of their retoric and branding. They shun and make fun of religion.”
        This is a stereotype that might be true of some homosexuals (and some straight folks as well) but is flatly untrue as a blanket generalization. Take Gene Robinson, for example, who is an openly gay Anglican Bishop.

        “We shouldn’t change the foundation of our fraternity so we don’t look bad to pointless individuals bent on political correctness.”

        This has nothing to do with political correctness, it is an issue of avoiding sectarianism within the Fraternity. Masonry should not be a vehicle for people to pursue their own religious beliefs and enforce them on others. Period.

        You are perfectly free to insist on your religious views within your church. Masonry is not a Christian institution, and it isn’t based on your specific understanding of Christianity.

        Like

      • 1 Corinthians 6:9
        April 22, 2016 at 11:00 am

        Not trying to enforce my religious views at all, just stating the obvious that the Holy Bible and Masonry are intertwined and there’s no room for homosexuality because it’s a conflict and contradiction of our obligation. I didn’t make this up, go to open books and read it for yourself. Whether you choose to abide by it is up to you. Same goes for any of the other furthermore promise and swears. It just the way it is.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Justaguy
        April 22, 2016 at 11:06 am

        You are, indeed, trying to enforce your views of Christianity within Masonry. Not all Masons are Christians, and not all Christians share your view of homosexuality.

        Liked by 1 person

      • 1 Corinthians 6:9
        April 22, 2016 at 11:16 am

        I didn’t create this on my own accord, merely stating the obvious that’s right before you. Argue with Masonry, not me.

        Like

  60. April 22, 2016 at 12:38 pm

    Wow did you just say gay men have no right in masonary then use the bible to back it. WE ARE NOT A RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONAN. Seriously if you think we are you real joined the wrong fraternity. Honestly any brother who wants to oust another really is no brother of mine. Shame more GLs didn’t follow suit with DC and CA. Disgusting what they did, and a one that supports the biggoty of what has been done please leave your apron at the door because you definately aren’t masonic. It’s about brotherly love and you are making it a religious issue. This is why religion and politics aren’t brought up. It’s bad enough people look down at the organization they don’t understand but for another brother to attack another brethren like that is disgusting. They bleed just like the rest of us they just enjoy the love of a man instead of a woman. If we were a church I wouod say go ahead and kick them but WE ARE NOT.

    Liked by 1 person

    • 1 Corinthians 6:9
      April 22, 2016 at 1:02 pm

      Thank you for your passionate response. Hopefully you are this passionate about the other behaviors in the obligation when a brother violates them but I’m guessing not. I never said Masonry was a religion, that was your way of twisting things around to suit your agenda. Again, you should argue with Masonry, not me, as I didn’t make the rules, I only follow them. Maybe you should read through the MM obligation again at open books or consult with an English teacher to help you with reading, applying and the understanding of definition comprehension. It’s really quite simply. The fraternity has standards of new membership, as well membership retention. It’s a private organization with no government ties so stop trying to insert your agenda because it doesn’t fit.

      Like

      • Justaguy
        April 22, 2016 at 1:49 pm

        You are insisting that Masonry enforce your religious views on all brothers. You are interpreting the MM obligation through the lens of your own faith. Your religious views do not belong in Lodge, and should not be imposed on others.

        The Bible is used to represent Sacred Law in general, and Masons are not required to believe in or follow it.

        Like

      • 1 Corinthians 6:9
        April 22, 2016 at 2:17 pm

        Once again you’re incorrect and absolutely twisting what I’ve said. Clearly anyone can read the obligation and understand at face value what it means. Has nothing to do with my reviews on religion which I have not forced upon you or anyone else. If you can read and understand the English language then you should have no problem understanding what I’m saying which again are not my rules but that of masonry. You can choose to go by them or not. I’m just merely stating the obvious that’s already there for you to read. It’s sad that you’re trying to twist and warp what I’m saying so that you can run and hide to try to win some sort of debate in your mind. I’m not buying into your agenda that you support nor will I ever have to. Why are you so opposed to understanding the basic definition of libertine? Do you understand atheist, madman or the word fool? Maybe these words are up for interpretation in your book as well but for me they’re pretty self-explanatory just like libertine.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Justaguy
        April 22, 2016 at 2:58 pm

        If you’re not basing your views on your interpretation of the Bible, why is your screen name “1 Corinthians 6:9” and why do you keep mentioning the Christian roots of Masonry?

        Either way, there is nothing in the obligation that refers to homosexuals. At all. “Libertines” is not a reference to homosexuals. Recall, this all stated when a Brother got married. The pics that the GL of Tennessee found so objectionable were not of some gay Satanic orgy, they were of a wedding. Legally entering into a committed monogamous relationship is not libertine.

        Liked by 2 people

      • April 22, 2016 at 6:28 pm

        Christian roots of Masonry? We’re barking up that old tree again? I hate trolls…

        Like

      • April 24, 2016 at 6:22 am

        To be fair, if you go back to the 1500s or 1600s, Freemasonry as we know it assumed that the religion to which “all men agree” was one of the 3 or 4 main Christian branches that were associated with the state/country government: Catholic, Anglican, and the others I’d have to look up. It was Anderson’s 2nd or 3rd Constitutions which really opened the door for all good men of character, no matter what his religion.

        That, however, does not imply Christian roots (i.e., religious moral roots) so much as the implication that members would be members of the state sanctioned religion, and not involved in some offshoot branch that would cause trouble. Remember, too, we are also charged with being quiet and peaceful citizens.

        Like

  61. April 22, 2016 at 1:59 pm

    This is a terrible, hateful thing to hear a Mason(?) utter. Think of the damage to our craft from these opinions. How much good timber is too afraid to enter for fear of meeting someone like this:
    .
    The main focus of a homosexual lifestyle is sex, it’s in all of their retoric and branding. They shun and make fun of religion.
    .
    Spoken in public, it is so biased with ignorance as to be laughable if it didn’t hurt every single Lodge. It hurts our Fraternity as a whole to have such bigotry, and I would hope every good Mason would understand that this is what is killing our Fraternity. This intolerance is not reflected in the best of society, which is what we are sworn to represent and uphold. This outward hate and criticism embodies everything bad & evil in the society we are sworn to improve.
    .
    This is, therefore, the most un-Masonic form of ignorance. If even ONE good man is turned away from Masonry by the words of a few who have (once again) used Freemasonry as a platform for their own opinions-it is one too many!
    .
    In fact, such flagrant ignorance for the ideals of the Craft make me suspect our good friends are none other than anti-Masons who make up facts in forums like these simply to hurt the Fraternity… And after all:
    .
    How can you tell an anti-mason making up facts on a mission to ‘convert’ the unwashed from a man who should never have become, nor should remain, a Mason? Are they all just trolls just looking to stir up trouble? Unfortunately, no. The system sometimes lets a few through the cracks that seek to use the forum as their podium, and you as their followers.
    .
    The every good Brothers should be quite concerned about the damage to THEIR Lodge caused by this errant commenter.

    Liked by 1 person

    • 1 Corinthians 6:9
      April 22, 2016 at 3:15 pm

      Congratulations, you have successfully hit all of the talking points used to support the homosexual agenda. One thing that you need to know is that society is growing tired of people like yourself running behind words such as bigot every time someone doesn’t agree with you. That term is often overused and used in the wrong context just as you have today. Some deflecting and read the obligation.

      Like

      • April 22, 2016 at 3:20 pm

        As I love star wars when vader says it’s too late for me and Luke responds with then you ate truly lost. Brother it doesn’t matter what we say you seem set on your mind no matter what and you are truly lost I hope one day you come to terms with how much against the obligations yout have gone against because you ate truly lost and feel sorry for you.

        Liked by 1 person

      • 1 Corinthians 6:9
        April 22, 2016 at 3:35 pm

        So according to you I’m lost because I don’t support your opinions on homosexuals in masonry, that’s just brilliant.

        Like

  62. April 22, 2016 at 2:02 pm

    Oh, and one more thought for any that have been stereotyped or marginalized simply be supporting the noble tenets of Masonry: How does it make YOU feel when you see a group marginalized and generalized like Masons are?

    …it’s in all of their retoric and branding. They shun and make fun of religion.

    Think about it…

    “Accuse the other side of that which you are guilty.” ~you should know who said this…

    Liked by 1 person

  63. April 22, 2016 at 2:32 pm

    Just going back and reading a previous post your MM degree in no shape or form ever says a man who is homosexual can’t be a Freemason. If you bring up morals then maybe only 1% of the politicions who run countries who as freemasons would be aloud in most of them don’t have good morals. I am really just shaking my head dude as a brother I respect you but you just don’t get it. Next you have the men and I an sure there are some in the fraternity who cheat on their wives which since.your brining religion into this breaks ome of the sacrite 10 commandments… yet you have nothing wrong with then… hell wouldn’t be suprised if the adultery in some cases was with another freemasons wife. I won’t talk bad about you but you really need to ask yourself why you actually joined because it seem you have completely lost your way. The two gay men who kicked out definately seem to have more morals the the GL of TN. If I had my way each one of them would be stripped of there titles and aprons taken away…definately not men of higher standing.

    Like

    • April 22, 2016 at 7:19 pm

      “…your MM degree in no shape or form ever says…”

      Are you a troll, not even speaking as a Mason? I figured as much… GTFO and peddle your hate elsewhere.

      This forum is no place for your anti-Masonic mission. You aren’t converting anyone, and your arguments are torn to shreds. And you don’t even know what you’re talking about as a non-Mason!

      Officer Barbrady & Tom: I call SHENANIGANS! This is just another trouble-making troll that isn’t even a Mason, trying to preach his hate. Where is my broom… Convincing us you were just a stupid Mason, when you are just a stupid anti-Mason… Shame on you! I don’t defend Masonry to troublemakers like you. See my previous posts’ quotes.

      What constructive purpose has he/she here?

      Time to go, troll.

      Like

      • April 22, 2016 at 11:02 pm

        Huh who said I was a non mason my points were valid. We teach brotherly love, we teach brothers to raise up man kind and are to teach each other how to become better men. The anti homosexual comments go against all that it doesn’t matter what hole someone sticks it in gay or not it’s good men trying to become better.

        Like

  64. April 22, 2016 at 6:22 pm

    The “Homosexual Agenda” has “Talking Points”?!?

    “…talking points used to support the homosexual agenda. One thing that you need to know is that society is growing tired of people like yourself running behind words such as bigot every time someone doesn’t agree with you.”

    You are confused.

    I don’t run behind words like “Bigot”. I hit you over the head with it as obviously wise counsel has gone in one ear & out the other.

    A few things your hate-based naivete should consider:
    1. Unless homosexuality is against the law (pay attention: I didn’t say marriage), then you are not behaving Masonically:

    “In the state you are to be a quiet and peaceful subject true to your government and just to your country you are not to countenance disloyalty or rebellion but patiently submit to legal authority and conform with cheerfulness to the government of the country in which you live In your outward demeanour be particularly careful to avoid censure or reproach Let not interest favour prejudice bias your integrity.”

    Explain to us uneducated exactly what these words mean, and how you practice it’s Masonic lesson each day? Please, teach the unwashed masses here how things would be if YOU ran the show. Or is the ‘homosexual agenda’ the only conspiracy theory you parrot?

    People like you are the reason this is more important today than ever-even if you don’t prove to really be a Mason. If so, you prove that having a ring means nothing-just like speed limit signs don’t prevent my getting speeding tickets. Your obligation is worthless.

    You preach hate and exclusion, claiming your liberties are violated unless you restrict the liberties of those you’ve marginalized. You claim that those practicing tolerance are somehow part of some kind of cabal you’ve made up, or are following some other hate-monger’s opinions.
    You should think before opening your mouth about issues like this, not just because it demonstrates your ignorance of Masonry and being a good citizen, but for how you tarnish the Craft as a whole. Your lack of shame is obvious, and your manner disgusting. The fact that you tout your opinions as truth is sickening.
    You will continue to cavort with those who want to restrict the freedoms this group or that, or intolerantly treat humanity inside the circumscribed circle or without, one at a time, won’t you? Anyone you don’t like has an agenda to take your freedoms away (sounds republican, no?), am I close? You are too simple to understand that the freedom you have to be wrong in Masonry and humanity is a right as well-a right that you are abusing. You are not only of an incorrect opinion, but preaching in Masonry’s name.

    So don’t be surprised when someone else feels like stripping YOUR rights away, and stop being tolerant of YOUR verbal vomit. Because sooner or later, YOUR turn will come,

    …and nobody will be listening to you squeal.

    Like

    • 1 Corinthians 6:9
      April 22, 2016 at 7:11 pm

      Congratulations on outing yourself as a homosexual. It took more posts than I thought but I knew eventually you couldn’t stand it and you out yourself. I would never want to sit in lodge with you because you are irritating, not because you’re gay. The main problem with homosexuality is that you, and your kind don’t believe in the concept of a two-way street. Anybody who doesn’t subscribe to your beliefs is close minded and you feel they should be open-minded to your way of life. So goes the lifestyle of a walking contradiction. You’ll never be excepted in society except by those who are trying to make headlines or garnish brownie points from the political correct police. You have constantly proved my point that homosexuals cannot stand religion, they run from it like the plague. That’s why you are always so unhappy and you never will be until you realize your malfunction.

      Liked by 1 person

      • April 22, 2016 at 7:21 pm

        Tom,
        Time for this one to go.

        Like

      • Justaguy
        April 22, 2016 at 9:19 pm

        “The main problem with homosexuality is that you, and your kind don’t believe in the concept of a two-way street. Anybody who doesn’t subscribe to your beliefs is close minded and you feel they should be open-minded to your way of life.”

        Erm, earlier you said that all gays are godless sex freaks. You’re not really leaving that much room open for a two-way street yourself.

        Liked by 2 people

      • April 22, 2016 at 11:10 pm

        Not gay and frankly any brother who screams sooooo loudly about the subject really take a lot of nerve. So far about 95% of the comments agree on this, you are sooo set in your ways it doesn’t matter what anyone tells you. You won’t budge it’s kinda funney when I brought up the other things like audultery you had nothing to say about it. The two men that were suspended displayed wedding pictures not some fetishes videos of them having sex. Reason I said your lost its not because I want you to conform to my ways it’s because it’s going against the most basic of freemason teachings. But again I say doesn’t matter what anyone says you are set in your way and nothing is changing that. Homosexual are still men. The ones who join lodge stI’ll want to become better. But I could go on and on and it still won’t matter.

        Liked by 1 person

      • April 24, 2016 at 5:34 am

        1 Cor, this conversation has been running for quite some time, and because it involves both politics and religion, it’s easy for passions to get out of hand.

        Please keep your comments relevant to the topic, and do not insult the others who are here to discuss.

        And yes, this goes for everybosy else, as well.

        Liked by 2 people

  65. April 24, 2016 at 11:50 am

    Trying to salvage something constructive out of this non-Mason troll’s hijacking the otherwise productive discussion, perhaps we’re holding one of the possible VSL’s too high. Sure, if you can twist it’s words to match your opinion, then you hit people over the head with it.

    But imagine a Lodge with a VSL on the altar you are not familiar with-or none at all? Would you be, act, and strive to be any less Masonic? Sure, you put a lot of weight in your interpretation of a book of stories, but what if you didn’t have that book of stories you use as a weapon? Would the lack of the NT create anarchy in Lodge?

    So ask yourself what really makes you a Mason.

    Like

    • April 24, 2016 at 3:33 pm

      And that’s why I brought up that some jurisdictions actually use a blank book, because the VSL, like our other lights and tools, is symbolic and not a literal book of law.

      Liked by 1 person

      • April 24, 2016 at 6:14 pm

        Exactly. it is either a guide to be ruled by, or a rule to be guided by. Masonry adapted to the KJV-ONLY issue you commented about earlier. It adapted by spreading to places where other good books of stories were used spiritually.

        The book does not make the man any more than the book makes a Lodge.

        Those who cherry-pick this & that out of any book they can find, then twist it to mean what they are trying to preach, come and go quickly.

        My question remains: Without any VSL, with no Altar, with nothing more than what an early 18th century English bar might have on hand, would it still be a Lodge?

        The answer to that determines whether you should be cherry-picking one book or the other, no? And for all you that are of the opinion just one of the many valid VSLs is valid, and you cherry pick that book and your ritual (even though it is against the laws of the state in which you are a quiet, obedient servant), I have this for you to see:

        “That’s how I be.”

        Like

  66. April 29, 2016 at 6:08 pm

    None of you are fit to be Brothers. You do nothing except torture one another as evidenced by this very thread. It’s a sickness called ego and you’re all forehead deep in it.

    Like

    • April 29, 2016 at 7:31 pm

      “None of you are fit to be Brothers.”
      .
      Whew! It took a lot, but we finally found someone to tell the world how to be a Mason!

      Don’t hold back, Brother, enlighten us with your wondrous and wise ways!

      Like

      • April 30, 2016 at 3:37 am

        99% of Masonic Trials go down because of some personal grudge being carried out against the target Brother. Perhaps that Brother stands in the way of an official’s lust for power, perhaps he is causing another member to see a mirror reflection of his own self (or rather the way he wishes his life was) and then we see the result.

        I was the very first target. After me there was Brother John Wright (no relation) of Kentucky. You don’t hear about the two of us, you only hear about this recent shenanigan in TN and the possibility of more shenanigans in GA. Throughout all my campaigning, the vast majority of Brothers out there have done nothing to actually help the problem, instead I have been the subject of scrutiny, personal attacks, trolling, real life stalking, its above and beyond unacceptable. Suddenly, through some backchannels, the idea recently arose that perhaps it was time for both myself and the Fraternity to reconcile. I know the Brothers involved in this theory had their hearts in the right places. However, once this conversation began – what happened next? In the midst of for once in the past several years feeling like the Fraternity had actually begun to change for the better, that thought was quickly shattered upon receiving more nasty irate accusatory emails from GL of CA, wherein it is made crystal clear this whole entire shunning of TN and GA was nothing more than California wanting some quick media attention to look good around our population of militant liberals (myself included).

        The ONLY thing I asked for in all these “negotiations” was for amnesty and a dues card. I even submitted to California the body of evidence showing that one of its own members, Brother Lon Milo DuQuette actually was the mastermind of “my book”, not me, and yet I was treated just as disgustingly and harshly as I ever was in Texas.

        Back to the subject at hand, why sexuality PERIOD is even up for discussion PERIOD is outrageous. I have read other Brothers’ comments on all this, and the ones who remind us all that a Lodge is not supposed to be a place to run one’s own political agenda… they are correct. I can recite you Masonic Law all day long, and this discussion should have been tabled in each and every Grand Lodge it arose in, immediately. Any Brethren whom are hung up on the topic are obiously not secure in their own masculinity, complete closet cases, and obsessed with us good lookin younger crowd who doesn’t care at all about some good ol’ fashioned Bro on Bro lovin. Personally, as a gay man, I don’t believe in public displays of affection, aside from special occasions. So this notion that the straight males inside might have to purchase chastity belts to allow us in would be quite incorrect. I was a jock in school, and been in plenty of locker rooms in my time where never not once was anybody uncomfortable, or any fiddly-diddling occured. And now, the proverbial “gay bedroom” has been dragged into the Lodge, not by any gay man, but by bigoted straight ones.

        And as far as I’m concerned, I will never set foot back into a Lodge or stop my campaign until California can figure out a way to lead the way, concoct me a dues card that in place of a Lodge name says something to the effect of “Special Amnesty Status” …but I will not be holding my breath.

        To think, there’s an alternate reality out there so much better than this, where absolutely none of this has happened. And rather than clean it up, everybody would rather sit and have meetings about having meetings about having more bureaucracy thrown at all of us to perhaps resolve this all in the next 100 years.

        And that, is how Freemasonry is broken.

        James Wright

        Like

      • April 30, 2016 at 9:46 am

        “None of you are fit to be Brothers.” ~James Wright
        .
        So now we can see that you are on a mission, and any podium will do. Instead of telling us all how only you are pure and righteous enough to be a Mason, you went on about some GLs that you feel wronged you. Let’s try again to go back to the subject of your above quote.
        .
        So I’ll ask a different way: What exactly makes makes you able to judge and look down on every single other Mason, and make such a claim?

        Like

    • April 30, 2016 at 4:09 pm

      You need to temper your passions, and to stay on topic.

      Like

  67. April 30, 2016 at 12:50 pm

    For those non-Masons reading all of this wondering why there is so much arguing. You’ll notice that all the real trouble happens when non-Masons post either as trolls, or posing as Masons to “convert the unwashed masses”. This WP site is not a representation of Masonry in these cases, but a reflection of the worst of society.
    .
    Please continue, Mr. Wright, in educating us as to how none of us, how did you put it? Oh, right… “…deserve to be Masons”… Apparently everyone but you is doing it wrong, so please, go on…

    Like

  68. April 30, 2016 at 2:16 pm

    Hey, yeah… why can’t women become Freemason’s in the good o’le USA?

    Like

  69. April 30, 2016 at 2:19 pm

    Can a Transsexual become a Freemason and what about Hermaphrodites? Just Curious.

    Like

  70. April 30, 2016 at 9:24 pm

    You need to learn what the *** freedom of speech and press are, and *** off with this worn *** out Masonic ******* control freak complex ********, *******.

    Like

    • May 1, 2016 at 6:56 am

      And you need to learn that on a private blog/forum, you go by the rules.

      Also, having a little class and civility rarely hurts, bro. Acting like an arrogant punk is generally not the best way to get your point (whatever it was supposed to be) across to others.

      Like

      • VF
        May 26, 2016 at 6:12 pm

        Being the loudest homosexual in this discussion, you shouldn’t be talking about civility, and especially – class. If you, homosexuals, did not make your physiological life public, you would all have less problems. Normal people just do not want to know about your physiology, and definitely they want to protect their kids from knowing about your physiological problems. Please, do yourselves a favour, and keep it to yourselves, and get quiet about your physiology already.

        Like

  1. May 2, 2016 at 10:53 pm

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